A wicked week of work kept me from doing any modeling with the exception of two new magnetized weapons for my Thousand Sons in prep for the St. Valentines Day Massacre.
Hosted by BigGunZ-NE, they ran a five round GT qualifier for the 2011 Los Vegas GT. I went representing Inner Circle Gaming Club. First two rounds of matchups were based on Comp, after that, rounds were based on battle points. I made some mistakes, got greedy taking risky moves, had good dice and bad. But five good games later I learned alot and managed to get 2nd place overall!! Qualifying for Vegas, and only missing out on 1st place by ONE point!
Prize support was exceptional, in-fact second place netted me a full Forge World Red Scorpion upgrade pack including:
RED SCORPIONS LAND RAIDER DOORS x1
RED SCORPIONS RHINO DOORS x2
RED SCORPIONS SYMBOLS x1
RED SCORPIONS MKIV VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT
RED SCORPIONS VANGUARD VETERANS WITH VETERAN SERGEANT CULLN COMMANDER CULLN
RED SCORPIONS VETERANS WITH VETERAN SERGEANT HAAS UPGRADE PACK
RED SCORPIONS TERMINATOR SHOULDER PADS x1
RED SCORPIONS MARINE SHOULDER PADS x3
BRASS ETCH RED SCORPIONS
Now I have to decide if I am going to use them, or find someone who would be willing to trade. I hate to let go of a hard won prize pack, but I really am dedicated to my Thousand Sons!
Wow! Congratulations!
ReplyDeleteThat is some serious prize support. When do we get to see your termies? What list did you bring?
@OSH,
ReplyDeleteThanks! Was pretty happy, learned alot due to some serious games and good players.
Termies, soon, I finished the bases (I think=-) last night, I still need to paint up all 36+ arms however. Bodies are fully painted with the exception of some final detail work, will post shortly.
My stock Thousand Sons double prince list... My dreads failed me overall (over 15 shoot crazies in 5 games, a couple times really altering the flow) but it still performed well.
It's a pretty hardcore list you've got. What I also like about it is that you haven't meched up but used your imagination and tactics to create something all your own. I really like it.
ReplyDelete@osh,
ReplyDeleteThanks! Hell of a complement from the local "God of Tau"!
I tried hard to make a fun, fluffy, but still competitive list.. I will be honest, every once in a while I am still tempted to take a lash=-) especially after a hardcore 40k tourney like this one...
Just call it the sparkly magical lasso of tzeentch.
ReplyDelete;)
I have written and heard of some pretty serious allegations of your play at the tourney Dameon. Can you please address those here or on my blog.
ReplyDeletehttp://bloodofkittens.com/?p=2817
Either way you have a great looking army!
@ TastyTaste,
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing this to my attention. I really don't have alot of time to watch the forums and am grateful for a chance to defend myself.
Thanks for the comment!
aside form the AlleGAYtions, congratulations. Having played you several times personally, I know that those things reported were straight bullshit.
ReplyDeleteHey Dameon, great game last night! Thought I would check out your career as a great big cheater (I knew you had 2000 more points than I did but I let it go to give you a chance) and finally stumbled into your blog. Love the WIP on the terminators.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about the various comments on your models, and one struck me that probably has some merit. While your defilers do have the gun at about the same height as the regular model, in the regular model the gun is not removed from the the main body in the same way. So if the bc can fire it can clearly take a shot back. I think if you allow los to be drawn to the gun then no one has a leg to stand on. Otherwise there is a potential modeling for advantage situation, because I can't think of any standard issue model with that kind of configuration. This is essentially irrelevant to me since I'm not sure that I have ever actually opened fire on your defilers, but I can see where people are coming from.
@ MVB =-) clever...
ReplyDelete@ Ben, Thanks, ya I had 3500 points to your 1750... But to be fair you were playing 'Nids, so I needed the extra point handicap...
You / others might have a point.... But here's the deal (my 2cents), I really hoped that with almost every other model I field being bigger, taller, etc would show that I was not trying to be a cheesy powergamer, and design every model to get a cover save. I just want a cool themed army. I tried to defend that point but I feel that at this point anything further I post on BoK will end badly.
I think people will find a reason to bitch, no matter what….. When I first started I had a player try to get my oblits thrown out of a tourney because he complained they were too big and gave me an unfair advantage, I actually had to make an appointment with Dave Taylor (while he was still working @ GW) to have him review a lot of my models pre-GT to make sure all my conversions to that point were legit, which included my defilers. I still get complaints my Daemon Princes are too big!
Should I go for the standing mega-meka defilers? Maybe designed as Egyptian gods? I did want to make a foot tall monster!
All love for you, Dameon, but you would avoid a lot of flak if you counted your dreads as normal height instead of double, your defilers as normal height instead of ... flat ... and other sorts of things. At the least, you want to be consistent.
ReplyDeleteTaking shots w/ your tail and denying return shots = not a wise idea.
The point of a friendly game group is you can establish conventions regarding your models / armies and be comfortable playing them that way. When you play with strangers at a tournament, the very best course of action is to be conciliatory and very clear / close to the actual rules of the game. Defilers are vastly different in design from your scorpions, and while your scorpions look badass if you played them as true WYSIWYG you'd be able to use simple hills as LOS blockage while permitting shots all day long.
As I understand, you've been playin' in GT's since at least 08, and it would probably do worlds of good to tout the gorgeous nature of your models, while also treating them more akin to their actual design in game terms. NO one even could fault you for it, and you'd avoid all these whiney internet shenanigans.
Not a sermon, just a thought.
In our game, I didn't mind letting you charge my valk nosecone instead of base (For example) by using a double height dread w/ a moveable arm. That said, that's me ... if someone did have a problem it wouldn't be surprising (even if you could argue for actually doing it = legitimate either way).
Make sense? Not trying to sound critical here.
Just echoing the above, I definitely don't think you designed the models for advantage (I actually posted as such on BoK last night in answer to someone's comment). BUT, and I think this is where the potential problem lies, the way the defilers are modeled does in fact provide them with an advantage. In a tournament people will generally be fine if you have handicapped yourself with a modeling choice (taller dreads/princes attracting more fire) but will be cheesed off at something that gives you an advantage. I don't think you need to stop using the models, just count the tail as part of the hull for LOS and you are good. Like you said, the tail is about the right height when compared to a regular defiler, so you aren't even seriously disadvantaging yourself by doing so and you will make your opponents a lot happier.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the delays in responses today, out working and stealing WiFi and time / location permits.
ReplyDelete@ MVB
Thanks for the constructive feedback…
The reason I picked this game over Warmachine or another miniatures game was two-fold. I was given some CSM and wanted to check it out, and I was told 40k allowed a lot of freedom in conversions and modeling… I find all this “noise” a bit disheartening…
A Point of order however.. I have NEVER denied someone a shot when I have shot at them, target to target. In one of my last games vs an IG player all 4 of his Las-cannon bases were blocked (true-los) but his regular troopers (a 41 man squad) attached did have LOS and I shot at them. I moved carefully to get that position and a normal Defiler would have had the same state with the terrain on that board… I targeted my battlecannon shots on his normal lasguns. I think I am going to have to start brining a camera with me from now on…
I am giving serious thought into the defilers and how they are designed. I have had my models approved by Games workshop, in 5th Ed, so to a certain extent I feel pretty safe, but there is an amazing amount of drama attached to them. I don’t refuse an opponent shots back, I just ask for a cover save which is reasonable IMHO.
Back to our near legendary game at this point… The Valk/Vend is a model causing no end of LOS / Shooting / Assaulting issues. Per 5th edition if a model can touch the target (for a vehicle) it can assault it, but once a model has a base it gets complex. I wish they would just FAQ it!
Sorry for the delays in responses today, out working and stealing WiFi and time / location permits.
ReplyDelete@ Bed
Thank you for the positive support… seriously.
I always count the Tail as part of the hull, both for LOS purposes and for shooting. Now I will argue a cover save when most of the model is covered by terrain but the tail, but I think that’s reasonable.
I really am not asking for a “pass” considering the dreads / Daemon Princes, I just would think someone would take the army as a whole, model vs model, majority size etc.
Do you think I thread with photos of side by side, of Daemon princes, dreads, defilers, etc for size and footprint comparisons would help? Hell I would even start carrying something like that to tourneys if I thought it would help smothers the flames a bit.
As long as the tail is being counted for LOS then I think you are good. Maybe just make sure you tell people at the beginning of the game that the gun counts for LOS and that if the lower hull is obscured a normal defiler would be as well. A lot of people complaining seem to think that you did have LOS to them but they didn't have LOS to you, so there may have been some honest confusion there.
ReplyDeleteAs for getting credit for the other models being modeled for disadvantage... there you are up against human nature, unfortunately. No one (almost no one at any rate) at a tournament is going to look at one model they think is putting them at a disadvantage, one model that puts them at an advantage, and call it even. They will be pissed off about the one model that they think is putting them at a disadvantage every time. It sounds a bit silly, but I think if you attached a 'line-up' shot of your models and the bog-standard counterparts to your army list it actually would help. The models _are_ unusual, wonderfully so, and some sort of visual guide probably isn't a bad idea.
I think all of this can be cleared up with a review of the rules in the BRB.
ReplyDeleteAbout the defilers, I was looking at the vehicle cover save and LOS rules last night. The rules do state that if the hull or turret is in LOS, the vehicle can be shot at. (PG. 60, top left) I believe it is indeed fair to consider the tail as part of the hull.
Pg 62 clears up any cover save rules. Note that vehicles do not gain cover saves as infantry (not even walkers) and must 50% of the vehicles facing (not model) must obscured to gain a cover save. The fact that it says the vehicle facing in important. You must first determine which facing you are firing at, and then check if that facing is 50% obscured.
So if your defiler is behind a low wall and the tail is sticking up and only the lower part of the vehicle is obscured, you don't get a cover save. Note too that vehicles do not gain cover for being in area terrain nor by intervening models unless it is 50% obscured. States all this clearly in the rulebook. Unfortunately it sounds like Dameon has inadvertently modeled for a disadvantage with that tall tail.
For measuring look to page 3 in the diagram. You always measure from the hull, for everything, including assaults. So if only your claws connect that is a failed assault.
The BRB really is a source of lots of information!
I don't think I follow this... the vehicle facing is not separated into upper and lower but front side etc. So, if one is firing at the front of the model, and 50% of the front facing of the model, then it should get a cover save. The tail has less area than the lower hull, so the scorpion behind a hill/wall with only the tail exposed should get a cover save. What am I missing from your argument?
ReplyDeletegah, should say "50% of the front facing of the model is obscured".
ReplyDeleteSorry for the delay, work is killer this weekend!
ReplyDelete@Ben,
Thanks, I think this week I will try to make a "height perspective board" and maybe take some photos @ Dreamwizards using some of the RT models in the case, my models and some peanut gallery models... (maybe some 'nids too!)
@OSH,
Good info... I do agree (and have always I think) That the tail is part of the hull. I do not try to claim sponson status like many of the Valkyrie spammers. I might have modeled myself into a corner again, but I still think even w/ the tail it's pretty reasonable to claim cover saves from ruins etc. The tail may be up, but as long as 50% of the total facing is in cover I get a save.
Infact if your in my front arc, but can only see clearly the side arc clearly I could argue a 3+ save based on that section. (kidding, almost impossible to do with a tail the size of mine!)
@Bac,
Hmmm I agree, as long as 50% of that total facing is covered I would get a save. The tail is large, tall, but skinny. Moving the Defiler into a position where 50% of the main body and 50% of the tail is obscured should not be too difficult.
BTW Anyone know of a good art software that will let me render a photo into silhouettes??
FYI bac and Ben are both Ben, not sure why I got different labels on different posts...
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